Dueling Robert De Niros, a Failed Pilot, and Too Many Oscars To Count — Barry Levinson Is Ready To Return to Movie Theaters

Summary

Barry Levinson returns to theaters after a decade with The Alto Knights.
The film was in development since 1970 and features a war between the two mob bosses both played by Robert De Niro.
Levinson dives into his love of the “ordinary,” inspired by his favorite movie Marty starring Ernest Borgnine.

It’s difficult to pigeonhole Barry Levinson – something the Oscar-winning director is acutely aware of and is quick to point out. Though, it is true. Take, for instance, his new film, The Alto Knights, a mob movie starring Robert De Niro as both real-life mobsters Frank Costello and Vito Genovese. (If the name Frank Costello rings a bell, we’ll get to that.) This is Levinson’s second mob movie – his other being the 1991 Best Picture nominee Bugsy – but no one in their right mind would think of Levinson as “a director who makes mob movies.” It’s actually remarkable that person who made Rain Man is the same director who, six years later, made Disclosure. (Both huge hits, by the way.)

In his latest film, The Alto Knights – Levinson’s first film to get a theatrical release in 10 years and a movie that has been in development since 1970 – De Niro takes on double duty as both Frank Costello and Vito Genovese, two childhood friends who grew up in organized crime. Vito runs the crew, but has to step away for a few years and hands the enterprise over to Frank. When Vito comes back to reclaim what he feels is his, things have changed. Frank has somewhat legitimized the business, while Vito would still like to run things with brute force. These two don’t see eye to eye, which, yes, causes some trouble.

(So, yes, Jack Nicholson plays Frank Costello in Martin Scorsese’s The Departed. But that character has nothing to do with the real Frank Costello and was actually based on Whitey Bulger, who also got his own movie, Black Mass, directed by Scott Cooper. So, it does seem fitting we’re finally getting an actual Frank Costello movie.)

Ahead, Collider takes a deep dive with Levinson to find out just what is the thread that connects his movies. Levinson thinks it all comes back to the movie that changed his life, the 1955 Best Picture winner, Marty. At the time, he had never seen a movie depict the ordinary so succulently – making the regular and mundane parts of life interesting. And looking at Levinson’s work, starting with Diner, that makes a lot of sense. But we’ll go back even further than Diner, back to Levinson’s first directing credit — a failed television pilot, a parody of news magazines called Peeping Times that stars David Letterman (yes, really) and features Mel Brooks playing Hitler.

Barry Levinson’s Long Journey to Making ‘The Alto Knights’

“How do we hold this all together, in all of these events that are taking place?

Barry-Levinson-Collider-Signature3 — Production still provided by Warner Bros.

COLLIDER: People have been trying to get The Alto Knights made for 55 years.

Barry Levinson: [Laughing] Could be!

I actually looked this up. It started in 1970.

Levinson: You know, it’s been around, I know that much. Your detail is very, um, interesting. People have tried to deal with it and how to handle it over the years. Talking with [screenwriter] Nick Pileggi, we came up with a way to tell the story.

When did you get involved with this?

Levinson: You know, it’s a good question, because the pandemic and everything has confused me.

That’s not just you.

Levinson: [Laughs] You have to go back at least five years, I’m guessing.

So what was the problem with the story? And how did you solve that?

Levinson: As I remember it, it was, how do we hold this all together, in all of these events that are taking place? And somewhere along the line, we thought, well, wait a minute: if we could explore the relationship of Vito and Frank – the two boys that grew up together, were so tight and fought the same way – and then began to split off. One being a mobster mobster. And the other becoming a mobster with a sense of corporate ways of making things function. And as how that feud began to grow.

Did you always envision Robert De Niro starring in this?

Levinson: I thought of Bob’s name immediately when we were talking about Frank Costello. It was [producer] Irwin Winkler, one day, when we were having a conversation about who will play Vito. He said, “Well, what about Bob? Because these characters are so different from one another and they are the same age. It might be interesting.” And I thought, well, that’s a good idea. I mean, look, De Niro is an amazing actor. And it’s a challenge for him to play two totally different guys. Bob responded to the challenge of it, and we began to think of it in those terms, and it went from there.

Was there anyone else discussed? Because it does seem like you like working with actors you know, especially in the last 20 or 30 years.

Levinson: Yeah, if you can! If they fit the roles you want to do. You can’t squeeze them into something that is not appropriate or beyond what your intentions are. But when you can see someone can step up to it, whether it was [Al] Pacino, with the various things that I had done with them over the years, or Bob. Those two I think I’ve worked with the most, on and off.

You mentioned Pacino; in Heat we finally saw he and De Niro square off in the same scene at a table. In this, De Niro squares off with himself at a table. How does that even work? Is there someone reading lines with him as he performs each role?

Levinson: That’s a good question. There was an actor that Bob felt comfortable with, and that’s he worked with on those scenes. It’s not like it was a script supervisor reading the line. We wanted someone to act with him.

I mean, look, De Niro is an amazing actor. And it’s a challenge for him to play two totally different guys. Bob responded to the challenge of it, and we began to think of it in those terms, and it went from there.

Right, but you’ve acted, so I thought it could have been you.

Levinson: No, no, it’s a good question, but he wanted an actor that he really felt he could work with that gives it that edge.

Someone we know?

Levinson: No, it’s not someone you would know. It’s someone Bob thought would be very good.

So, De Niro is playing Frank Costello, which is Jack Nicholson’s character’s name in The Departed. But Nicholson’s character is based on Whitey Bulger. Then Scott Cooper makes Black Mass, which is about Whitey Bulger. Now you’ve made the movie about the real Frank Costello.

Levinson: [Laughing] I hadn’t thought that, but it’s true.

The Departed wins Best Picture, so people have it in their head that Frank Costello was an Irish mobster from Boston.

Levinson: You bring that up now, and I remember at the time thinking, “There were two Frank Costellos?” I never did figure that out initially. It is funny though.

Barry Levinson Returns to Movie Theaters After a Decade

“What is the subject that you say, I’m willing to spend a year, two years of my life invested in this project.”

Barry-Levinson-Collider-Signature1 — Production still provided by Warner Bros. Pictures

I realize over the last decade you’ve been busy, including directing three movies for HBO and episodes of Dopesick. But this is your first theatrical release in 10 years. How important was that to you?

Levinson: You know, I love theatrical, and I’ve had a very good experience with those three features that were on HBO. So, in a sense, I was very pleased with that. I mean, these were subjects that I wanted to explore and I thought they were worthwhile. And so, you just go down that road. Certain things intrigue me and I’m willing to just make them. I’m not going to say, “Well, I love to do it, but it’s not theatrical, so I’m not going to go down that road.” If the material gets me interested or wanting to develop that particular material, that’s what I’ll pursue.

The Survivor was well received at the Toronto International Film Festival and was nominated for an Emmy. Did you expect that to be theatrical?

Levinson: Absolutely. I wish it did come out as theatrical. I think that would have served it the best for that particular subject. But unfortunately, [with the pandemic] we had no alternatives and HBO stepped up.

But if I’m you, I’m looking around at my contemporaries and Scorsese does movies in theaters, Coppola had one last year, Michael Mann had Ferrari. I can’t imagine you don’t notice that and want one in theaters, too.

Levinson: Here’s the thing. Theatrical is much more big-budget filmmaking. If you take Scorsese’s recent film, it’s a big, big production. If you’re not doing one of those, where do you fit in? That’s where that world between streamer and theatrical begins to separate one from the other. The Academy Awards this year, some of those movies were just pure streamers that were nominated. Or played their two weeks in the [theater]. So we’re looking at a different world. But putting that aside, what is the subject that you say, I’m willing to spend a year, two years of my life invested in this project. And that’s what I base it on.

Robert De Niro as Frank Costello in The Alto Knights.

‘The Alto Knights’ — 7 Things You Need To Know About Robert De Niro’s Return To the Gangster Genre

Just when you thought he’d done it all, Robert De Niro goes and plays not one but two mobsters in a movie.

And here you made a mob movie, which I believe is your first mob movie since Bugsy. It’s interesting, when people think of you, they don’t think of mob movies, even though Bugsy was nominated for Best Picture.

Levinson: I don’t necessarily pick a genre I want to live in.

Oh, I can tell, you’re an impossible director to define like that.

Levinson: Look, I loved movies as a kid. I went to see all kinds of movies. I went every Saturday. I didn’t even know what was playing. And I saw all kinds of movies. And certain films stuck with me over the years. Others would just disappear the week after you’ve seen it. I’m basically driven by characters. Characters in a certain circumstance, I’m fascinated by. One of the most influential films in my life was Marty.

With Ernest Borgnine.

Levinson: Yes! One of the most influential things I ever saw in my life. And it stuck with me! And I was a kid! This will sound stupid and is off topic, but I would walk around for weeks afterwards with my friends as a little kid, “What do you want to do tonight, Angie? I don’t know.” It’s so ordinary! I love it! It’s one of the best things I ever heard in terms of dialogue. So I was always captivated by the ordinary. How do you make the ordinary times interesting? Where Diner, in a sense, is a movie made up of all of these little kind of moments and frustrations. Where do you go with your life? How do you deal with a woman? What do you talk about? Ordinary. Try to make the ordinary interesting enough. That was the beginning of it all. Therefore, in these various things that I’ve done, there’s always that texture I can put in there. There are times when everything is not spectacular. Some things are ordinary. And if you can make the ordinary conversations work, then that excites me.

What Hasn’t Barry Levinson Done in His Career?!

“It was a little too extreme for the network.”

Barry-Levinson-Collider-Signature5 — Production still provided by Warner Bros. Pictures

It’s interesting the movie you randomly saw that influenced you the most won Best Picture. Then you win Best Picture.

Levinson: And if you think about Rain Man, it’s not a giant plot. You just have to get across the country.

Yeah, it’s a road trip movie. And when it’s on cable, which it still is a lot, I watch it every time because of that.

Levinson: [Laughs] Well, that’s good to hear.

You mentioned not every moment is spectacular. It does seem you’ve mostly avoided movies that have spectacular plots. Though Sphere seems like an exception.

Levinson: With Sphere, I tried to do a piece dealing with, you know, a condition. They’re well underwater and things are sort of happening, and then they’re turning on one another and there’s paranoia, et cetera. That’s what interests me. These people get in a confined space and the pressures that are put on them and the anxieties and the mistrust and all that happening? That’s what I thought was sort of interesting, as opposed to, you know, a scary monster piece.

Speaking of your movies being hard to define. During the pandemic, I know a lot of people who watched Disclosure for the first time. Younger people. And they were all pretty shocked to find out you directed it.

Levinson: [Laughs] That’s good news.

Well, it’s kind of Adrian Lyne-style steamy sexy thriller

Levinson: I thought it was interesting! It just turns it upside down with the issues that are present when it was written in the book. So you go, yeah, that seems interesting. It basically takes place with the issues of male/female and all of that that goes on – then hanging it upside down, which is what Michael Creighton did. We just turn it all around and then, you know, that way you can be examining the situations in the workplace, in some fashion. But you know, that was sort of a really interesting, compelling piece to try out.

I know the network thought, “That’s too extreme, we can’t do this.” So, we only did the pilot. But I thought it was an interesting way to do a show. We had some good people in it, too! A good cast!

I’ve been wanting to ask you about Peeping Times forever. When I was in high school, it had this kind of cult status of this thing David Letterman did before Late Night. I just watched the whole thing in full. It’s pretty incredible.

Levinson: [Laughing] You know, as you say this, I just got – it was sent to me, it was found – Peeping Times. Because I didn’t have anything on it. And suddenly, I get a video of it — which I have to get transferred — that’s on two-inch tape. So, I haven’t seen it since. I know the network thought, “That’s too extreme, we can’t do this.” So, we only did the pilot. But I thought it was an interesting way to do a show. We had some good people in it, too! A good cast!

Yeah, James Cromwell shows up. Mel Brooks shows up as Hitler. The segments on immigration and crime still work today. And the segment on Nazis. Yeah, all stuff still in the news.

Levinson: Didn’t we also do one on pornography?

Yes, and one about male chauvinism where the guy wants to be a nun became a woman became a priest. But then the more he looked into it, he decided he really did want to be a nun.

Levinson: [Laughs] I think we had some really good topics to have! But it was a little too extreme for the network.

I loved the one where Letterman investigates if those “draw this face and you can become an artist” scams really work and everyone who entered is now very successful.

Levinson: [Laughing] I had forgotten that one! I just got this two-ich tape, so I haven’t seen it yet. But when you mention it, it does make me smile. It’s ironic I just got this tape and I’ve been curious about it because I haven’t seen it since I made it.

They made a mistake not picking it up for a series.

Levinson: It’s the “tries” that you do in terms of television. We had success with Homicide and Oz. But then others, I did a Diner pilot, which CBS did, and turned it down. We had a great cast in it, oddly enough. So there are those things that you try that somehow never get through the bureaucracy of it all. But, at the same time, at least you did the pilot, or whatever – something that intrigued you, and you had a passion for.